Wednesday, February 04, 2009

What's Islam Got to do With it?

Leonard Pitts had an interesting column recently. It started off with some information that should be spread throughout the West. We need to acknowledge that maybe, just maybe, Islam is not as healthy for women (or men) as the apologists have been claiming.

A story for women and girls.

Shamsia was walking with her sister when a man on a motorcycle pulled abreast of them. ''Are you going to school?'' he asked.

She was. And this was, by definition, an incendiary act in Kandahar, Afghanistan, where the Taliban is making a comeback and posters on walls warn, ``Don't Let Your Daughters Go to School.''

What happened next was monstrous. As recounted Jan. 14 by The New York Times, the man lifted the girl's burqa, exposing her face. Then he sprayed it with acid. In all, 15 girls and their teachers at the Mirwais School For Girls were targeted by six men on three motorcycles in the November attacks.
Read the whole thing. He kind of flies off track. Nowhere does he mention Muslims or Islam. Rather, by some dubious sleight of mind, he attaches this story to the alleged current climate of anti-female prejudice in the United States. I haven't seen that anti-female bias myself, unless he's referring to Sarah Palin. After all, he does offer this quote:
Here, we speak of ''sexism,'' by which we mean the candidate who faced a double standard when she ran for office . . .
Maybe Leonard Pitts can ignore the humiliation of women in Islamic society, but not everyone does. Here's a good one from FrontPage Magazine from January of last year.
This week, seven hundred feminists signed an Open Letter complaining that “columnists and opinion writers from The Weekly Standard to the Washington Post to Slate have recently accused American feminists of focusing obsessively on minor or even nonexistent injustices in the United States while ignoring atrocities against women in other countries, especially the Muslim world.”

We recognize this Open Letter as a delayed response to the Freedom Center’s Islamo-Fascism Awareness Week, which protested the silence of feminists over the “Oppression of Women in Islam” on campuses all over the country last fall, organized sit-ins at a dozen Women’s Studies Departments to protest the absence of courses and department-sponsored events confronting the issue, and made this a matter of national discussion and debate. This is why the signers of the Open Letter complain that “‘Women’s rights are human rights’ was not a slogan dreamed up by David Horowitz or Christina Hoff Sommers,” two of our speakers for Islamo-Fascism Awareness Week. (We never claimed it was.)

The signers of this Letter claim that, “contrary to the accusations of pundits,” they support Muslim feminists in “their struggle against female genital mutilation, ‘honor’ murder, forced marriage, child marriage, compulsory Islamic dress codes, the criminalization of sex outside marriage, brutal punishments like lashing and stoning, family laws that favor men and that place adult women under the legal power of fathers, brothers, and husbands, and laws that discount legal testimony made by women.”
I haven't heard much of this alleged defense of Muslim women since then, have you? How do these people spend so much energy whining about minor (or nonexistent) problems in the West while ignoring or excusing the horrors of living under Sharia law? What kind of mental processes leads a person to think like that?

A final quick question to a brief post: Why is it that every pathology within Islam is declared to be unislamic and some strange aberration no matter how many thousands or millions of times it's performed?

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At 8:08 PM, Blogger Jungle Mom said...

I am reading a very enlightening book right now,"Reading Lolita in Tehran". I can not understand why people do not understand this concept about Islamic treatment of women. Do they choose to ignore it? Or are they truly ignorant?

At 8:26 PM, Blogger ABNPOPPA said...

JM, I believe they are just ignorant. That is not meant to be derogatory just factual.

Harry, thanks for stopping by and please come back. We do have some interesting debates. It's hard to get some discussion and not arguments. You and Lilia did an excellent job of discussion and fact. Then again, you are a teacher.

Have a great life,


At 8:53 PM, Blogger Mrs. C said...

Ok, your first link is broken, but your second about the Islamofascism is about what you'd expect at a college.

But I find it interesting that a lot of the same people who rail against "Judeo-Christian" anything are the same ones who think Islam is okie-dokie. Not getting it. You know math pretty well and maybe you can explain the algebra there to me. :p

At 1:55 AM, Blogger MightyMom said...

what's worse are the women...I work with a Muslum woman...she thinks they're treated fabulously!! after all, her husband obviously knows so much more than she does!!

At 5:35 AM, Blogger Mrs. C said...

LOL MightyMom, I like it when my owner scratches me under the collar and plays fetch with me, too!


At 4:42 PM, Blogger Harry said...

Jungle Mom,
I read that book. It's pretty disturbing the way a society can turn to one that welcomes totalitarianism.

I found the arguments Lilia came up with interesting and disturbing. I will (as soon as I have some spare time) write a post about the debate. I admit though, I did get sarcastic at times.

Mrs. C,
Um, speaking of sarcasm . . .

Oh, and I used my expertise to fix the link. My Algebra is not good enough to explain the twisted minds of the dopes you describe, although I do know some of them.

Mighty Mom,
My wife had a Muslim woman as a classmate. The Muslim woman tried to convince my wife that Islam has a lot in common with Judaism. My wife has been living with me a long time though, and politely squashed her invalid comparison.

At 6:42 AM, Anonymous Lilia from Algeria said...


Mmmmmmm, I see that you once again 'talk' (or rather speculate) about MY religion; fine! I don't want to start a series of arguments or debates or whatever because frankly, reading again and again the same false & -excuse the term- stupid & ignorant statements about us Muslims & especially we, the Muslim women (as if we needed other persons' suggestions on how to better our own lives!) is boring and I no longer bother to try to convince anyone or explain anything to people who don't even try to take the trouble to understand.

For those who want to understand, however, there is sufficient material on the web (among other sources) where you can have the answer to your questions regarding Islam (reliable sources of course) like for example: (on this website you can ask ANY question & you'll receive the RIGHT answer whatever your likes or dislikes; give it a try)

& yes I believe every word I said in my comments at the opposite of some people who try to distort the truth. & I won't change my place as a MUSLIM woman for anything on earth...


At 8:07 PM, Blogger Harry said...

Why Lilia, how lovely to hear from you again.

Actually I never expected you to change your mind about anything.

I will continue to discuss your religion as long as members of your religion continue to do the things they are doing around the world and demanding special rights in the United States. I will also continue to speak out against those insane conspiracy theories you were tossing around. From what I've read though, this mode of thought is common throughout the Muslim world. Right?

And if you're happy being a Muslim woman, that's fine, but again, I will continue to fight against the demands of some members of your religion that all women become Muslim women or die - or suffer as dhimmis if they're Jewish or Christian.

At 3:02 AM, Anonymous Lilia from Algeria said...


WE, the ARABS, have a very meaningful proverb: "Les chiens aboient, la caravane passe" (Idiomatic translation: Let the world say what it will).

Soooooo… Good Luck dear Harry in your islamophobic pursuits based on falsehoods & ridiculous/foolish/debased fallacies; certainly NO Muslim will lose any sleep over what you'll be saying or doing against us. Lol (laughing out loud- I know that you old folks do not understand all the expressions/abbreviations that we, the young, use on the net^^)...

By the way, what do you teach? The Art of Propaganda? How to become an expert on distorting the truth? Focus: Islam… Mmmmmmmmmmmm sounds VERY interesting!


“Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.” ~ Prophet Muhammad (saaws)

“Propaganda is that branch of the art of lying which consists in nearly deceiving your friends without quite deceiving your enemies.” ~ Frances Cornford

“Propaganda does not deceive people; it merely helps them to deceive themselves.” ~ Eric Hoffer

“There is nothing more frightening than active ignorance.” ~ Goethe

“Peace if possible, truth at all costs.” ~ Martin Luther

“Always tell the truth. That way you don't have to remember what you said” ~ Mark Twain

“Man can certainly keep on lying... but he cannot make truth falsehood. He can certainly rebel... but he can accomplish nothing which abolishes the choice of God.” ~ Karl Barth

“When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken, or cease to be honest.”~ Unknown

At 8:39 PM, Blogger Harry said...

Eh? Speak up missy! I never can hear you young whippersnappers through this dagburned (excuse my language) hearing aid!

As for what I teach, yep you're on to me. I am a professor at the Elders of Zion Conspiracist Academy and Tea Shoppe. I teach upper level courses to Mossad agents in propaganda, truth distortion, and islamophobia.

How is it that those who are the most remote from the truth are the ones who can quote the most about the truth? I'm sorry, but I just don't have time to play dueling quotes right now.

By the way, I was skimming a bit on Wikipedia regarding the Algerian Civil War. One thing that wasn't made clear was how the Algerian government handled the insurgents. Are there any good books (in English) on the subject? How did your government respond to all of those massacres?

At 7:22 AM, Anonymous Lilia from Algeria said...

SALAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAM (I'm trying to speak up in the hope that you'll hear me)

Regarding my question about the discipline/subject you teach, I asked you to tell me what your covertness was, i.e., the job the people around you think you do, not your real one; that I already know.

Concerning the "Algerian Civil War", I wasn't grown up enough then (before 1998) to be able to judge or think much about the doings of my government. What I can tell you however is that those (early) 'militants' (the very objective & knowledgeable) Wikipedia speak about were trained & indoctrinated during the 1980’s (when they were supposedly fighting against the USSR in Afghanistan) by... (guess who!) the CIA & ANOTHER entity (of course!) just like Ben Laden! Curious isn't it? Well, this is life... But I’m sure that your being from The Institute for Intelligence and Special Operations (wow!) you already know that & can even tell me more about that hateful period in the history of my dear country.

On another topic, I was wondering if you could give me the link of a (reliable) website where they explain Judaism for non Jews. I don't have the time to look on the net & I'd like to have somewhere where to download a short eBook explaining the basics of your religion & (trying to) convincing us Muslims, Christians & other Gentiles (with evidence of course) that it’s the true religion & that we are on the wrong path. Here’s an eBook about MY religion Islam.

Oh I forget. Allow me to tell you that while there is hope for the reformation of YOUNG 'whippersnappers' -these latter still having enough time to learn & improve- there is a BIG chance that OLD whippersnappers are doomed to stay so (except for a MIRACLE).

Shalom & Toda in advance for the link


"La sagesse n'attend pas le nombre des années"

At 8:49 PM, Blogger Harry said...

People think I'm a teacher. I mold young minds. My specialty is reading instruction.

CIA and another entity? So is this also factual?

As for learning more about Judaism and "explaining the basics of your religion & (trying to) convincing us Muslims, Christians & other Gentiles (with evidence of course) that it’s the true religion & that we are on the wrong path." You really do need to learn about Judaism. Jews don't try to convince gentiles that we are the "true religion." We believe that the righteous of all religions have a share in the world to come. You don't have to be Jewish.

People who wish to convert are certainly welcome, but it's also customary to try and talk the potential convert out of converting. Why? To insure that the person is serious about converting, not doing it on a lark, or at the behest of another person. It's not easy being a Jew both because of what we believe God expects from us and because of what the rest of the world demands of us. There is also a course of study involved, but that is something that will be worked on with the rabbi who is helping with the conversion. So if you're looking for a site to try to convince you to "change your evil ways" and become a Jew, you won't get that from me.

That being said, I'd never thought about that kind of site before. I read through some of the pages at the following link and it looks like a good place to start if you want to cover the basics.

To begin, I recommend you read the pages on "What is Judaism?", "What do Jews Believe?", "Who is a Jew?", and "Jewish Attitudes Toward Non-Jews." Those are good beginnings and there are other useful pages. If you have any questions, I can either answer them or guide you to where they can be answered.

At 3:00 AM, Anonymous Lilia from Algeria said...


As I told you many times Harry I believe every word I said/say, so obviously it's up to you to decide what you believe or not believe. What I told you about my country is true & I have no reason to lie to you. The idea of a strong & powerful Algeria (Arab Muslim country with a revolutionary past & huge oil & gas deposits, etc) is abhorrent to many in the world who are ready to do anything to ensure that this will never be. But I'm sure you know already that.

You have a noble job as a teacher "moulding young minds"; what a pity you have such (genuine or intended) wrong/false notions about us Muslims &/or Arabs.

Regarding Judaism, what you told me about it is not very different from other religions. To convert to any religion a person has to be genuinely a believer & serious about converting; this is so obvious it doesn’t even need mentioning.
& concerning your “if you're looking for a site to try to convince you to "change your evil ways" and become a Jew”, which BTW made me laugh, I assure you that because I’m such a devout Muslim I want to know more about all other religions. I know already a lot about Judaism & other religions but because you are a Jew I asked you to show me a reliable link.

Is supporting the so called ‘State of Israel’ part of being a Jew? If so, could you give me evidence from the Torah/Talmud and Kabala?

What do you think of these (Collection of scriptural verses that show that only G-d will redeem the Jews from their exile & a collection of teachings of our Sages instructing us to await redemption by G-d Himself, and not to attempt to undertake our redemption ourselves before the Divinely-decreed time)? Are they faked? Is the translation a false one?

About the Holocaust now: although I’m not a Holocaust denier & never been one, I strongly believe that Zionism has/had a pivotal role in the fulfilment of that horrible episode in Jewish history. & it’s not Muslims or ‘anti-Semites’ who say it but real pious Jews.

Are all those sources & Jewish people faked too?

& since you are so much in love with the so called ‘State of Israel’ why don’t you go live there? I know that the USA is a great country –no irony intended- but if you are so committed with the ‘Israeli’ cause isn’t it sufficient motive to change the country?

Inquiring minds want to know ^^



At 4:47 AM, Blogger Harry said...

I've been busy. I will have a response in a few days.

At 9:33 PM, Blogger Harry said...

You only think you know a lot about Judaism. Judging from your remarks about how Jews are to blame for the Kennedy assassination, and 9/11, – oh, I mean Zionists, Mossad agents, or whatever other term you use to avoid using the word “Jews” when you mean Jews, you know nothing. Wait, that’s wrong. You know less than nothing. You are mistaking your prejudices, which I’m sure are being fed by the websites you visit and by the sermons you listen to in your mosque (this admittedly is a guess, but after viewing a lot of psychotic Jew-hatred being spewed by imams at, and on Youtube, I’m willing to hazard that guess), and by the books you read. I’ve witnessed these views before on Nazi sites, white supremacist sites, and other sites that expose this kind of insanity. Add to the conspiracy mongering, now you tell me that Jews were responsible for the Holocaust? If you were as knowledgeable as you pretend you are, you would understand what a vile, morally twisted view that is, even if you find these idiotic claims on a Jewish website. If you knew anything about Jews and Judaism, you would know that Jews have been accused of causing their own victimhood since the first time we were accused of deicide.
I asked this before and you didn’t respond, so I’m asking again (with a few additions). Did Zionists or Mossad cause the 2004 tsunami? Do they use the blood of Muslim children to make matzos? Are the Protocols of the Elders of Zion the truth? Are AIDS infected prostitutes sent into Palestinian areas to . . . well, you know. Did the Jews kill Christ? Did Jews stab Germany in the back during World War I? Do Jews control the world’s banks and finances? Did Jews poison the wells to cause the Plague in medieval Europe? All of these charges are as valid as your charge of Jews and the Holocaust. All of these charges have been made and believed throughout the centuries. I bet many of these charges are being made in mosques and on TV shows throughout the Muslim world. I bet you grew up on this mental and moral poison.
Were Jews also responsible for being murdered by Crusaders on their way to the Holy Land in the Middle Ages, and for the Spanish Inquisition, and for the thousands of pogroms throughout history in Europe and Muslim lands?
You constantly refer to the “so-called state of Israel”. A few comments there. Do you use a cell phone? Guess what. Motorola developed original cell phone technology at their R&D centers in Israel, and a then-unknown Israeli startup called ICQ first unveiled Internet chat messaging to the world. Intel's latest Dual Core and earlier Pentium chips were developed at their Haifa R&D center, and manufactured at Jerusalem and Kiryat Gat fabrication plants; the NICE company is an industry byword for security systems, and NDS introduced simple, easy-to-use, pay-per-view TV to international audiences. More on Israeli contributions in technology at and . You will call it propaganda, but how many products that you use were either created or improved in Israel?
Now, what has the so-called country of Algeria contributed to the world? Your statement about we in the West being against a strong Algeria is ridiculous. Most Westerners don’t even care about Algeria, might have trouble finding it on a map, and could tell you even less about your country than you were able to tell me because so much of it happened when you were young. That’s interesting. Here in the US, (and maybe I’m showing my advanced age here) some of us learn something called “History” so that we can know and understand the things that happened when we were young and even before we were born. There are also objects called books that we are allowed to read here that give different views on this history.
Actually, it is you and the Muslim world who feel threatened by the existence of a tiny Jewish country in your midst, a tiny Jewish country that allows all of the freedoms that are denied in the 53(?) Islamic nations – including Algeria. According to Islamic thinking, those Israelis Jews and all Jews who refuse to submit have denied the natural order of the Universe; we won’t allow ourselves to become dhimmis. The agricultural, technological, and medical breakthroughs Israel has made couldn’t have been produced anywhere in the Muslim world. That is another thorn in the side of Islam. My point here is that Israel does not need yours or anyone else’s permission to exist as an independent country; that includes scriptural backing. Besides, back in the beginning of this discussion, you were against playing dueling scripture.
In Judaism, there are conflicting views among Jews. Unlike in Islam, we don’t murder each other, so the fringe groups exist and are championed by people like you who think they know a lot about Judaism. I’ve met people like you over the years who think they know about Judaism because they’ve heard the same stories you have that have been around for thousands of years, changing as the times demand so that no matter what Jews do, they can be condemned for doing it. Many of these people have never met a Jew and so believe the stupid stories, much like you do. I’m not as polite with them as I used to be. And don’t try to pretend your anger with Israel has anything to do with the situation in Gaza or feelings for the “Palestinians”. As I stated before, nobody cares about them otherwise there would have been protests when Lebanon destroyed a refugee camp there. Go back and read that thread.
There used to be a thriving Jewish community in Oren, now there isn’t. Could it have anything to do with the on and off persecution that began in the 1870s? I suppose you will blame that persecution on the Jews.
Just what has all of Islam contributed to the world in the past 1000years? Algebra? That’s one. Zero? Nope, that came from Hindu India. Let’s face it. Every advance you enjoy was produced in the West – and when I say “the West,” that includes Israel.
Meanwhile, what have Muslims been doing around the world? Rather than trying to help create prosperity they are intent on the destruction of tiny Israel. They are also trying to bully the rest of us to live under their rules whether we’re Muslims or not. And they’re trying in a thousand different ways.
Your perception of Jews is based on ancient blood libels and hatred. My perceptions of Islam are based on reading these accusations against Jews by Muslims and on news reports on what’s going on among Muslims worldwide. Synagogues in Chicago were vandalized by Muslims. Muslims protesting against Israel were yelling for “Jews to go back to the ovens” and other lovely sentiments. There are “honor killings”, riots over cartoons, riots in the Muslim suburbs of Paris and other French cities, genocide (for real) in Sudan. Does any of this add to your pride? The founder of Bridges TV, designed to give Americans a positive image of Islam, recently beheaded his wife.

Since you quoted Eric Hoffer approvingly, here are a couple more of his quotes:

"The Jews are a peculiar people: Things permitted to other nations are forbidden to the Jews.

Other nations drive out thousands, even millions of people, and there is no refugee problem. Russia did it. Poland and Czechoslovakia did it. Turkey threw out a million Greeks and Algeria a million Frenchmen. Indonesia threw out heaven knows how many Chinese--and no one says a word about refugees.

But in the case of Israel, the displaced Arabs have become eternal refugees. Everyone insists that Israel must take back every single Arab. Arnold Toynbee calls the displacement of the Arabs an atrocity greater than any committed by the Nazis. Other nations when victorious on the battlefield dictate peace terms. But when Israel is victorious it must sue for peace.

Everyone expects the Jews to be the only real Christians in this world."
Eric Hoffer

”The less justified a man is in claiming excellence for his own self, the more ready he is to claim all excellence for his nation, his religion, his race or his holy cause.”
Eric Hoffer

As for moving to Israel, maybe I will. It’s still a silly argument as I could just as easily ask why you don’t move to Gaza as you love Hamas so much. Then you could raise your children on shows like these.

and especially

At 4:47 AM, Anonymous Lilia from Algeria said...

Have you finished pouring ALL your hatred-filled bigoted ideas about us or do you still keep some in your pocket? Tell you what, you *really do need* seeing a psychiatrist!

Your looooong fictional narrative did nothing more than confirm my initial idea about your incurable islamophobia which fills me with pity, contempt & disdain but no hatred. I will NEVER fall as low as you; this is beneath me.

I had a genuine desire to understand & was expecting real direct answers to my questions but you acted otherwise and chose instead to show me another sample of what you really have inside which says a lot about what you really are. My advice to you is: try to be a little bit diplomatic next time you have to deal with a person not sharing your ideas or views (especially when it’s a well-behaved, intelligent, cultivated person); acting differently is not only impolitic and unwise but also very immature and may give readers a glimpse of the writer’s propensity to paranoid thinking.

Well, it will show me to try to debate ‘intellectually’ with someone like you who, each time a person disagrees with his views, decries them as “a bunch of truly twisted, deluded lunatics. They are communists, 9/11 truthers, conspiracy theorists, terror apologists, absolutely deranged, and morally deficient in their outlook on life. ..they are anti-Semitic”!!! Of course! Only Harry has nothing to do with that description! He can apply it to anybody BUT himself.

The result of my visit to your blog? I leave it prouder than ever for being what I am. Whatever you and others will do, be sure that sooner or later TRUTH will triumph. Elhamdoulillah wa Soubhanallah.



“Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.” ~ Our Beloved Prophet Muhammad (saaws)

At 9:04 AM, Blogger Harry said...

You still don't get it, do you? You still don't understand that with all of your name calling, you didn't answer a single argument that I raised. You still don't want to admit that your head has been filled, not with knowledge, but with garbage. I will share and discuss "views" based on reality, not sick fantasies concocted by Jew haters.

You can toss around terms like "islamophobe" all you want, but as long as the world is filled with Muslims engaging in hatred and terrorism, I and others who pay attention will have a less than favorable opinion of Muslims and Islam. But since I am so far beneath you intellectually, emotionally, spiritually, and philosophically, it's probably too long of journey downward for you to understand.

Oh well, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

At 10:06 AM, Blogger Jungle Mom said...

Well, I see why Lilia has not been visiting me...


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